Christina: [00:00:00] Welcome to the JOMOcast. I'm your host, Christina Crook. Join us as we sit down with leading founders, creators and thought leaders to learn how they embrace the joy of missing out. These guests are choosing to digitally detox and usher balance into their busy lives. Let's dive right in.

We talk about FOMO a lot around here. One of the conditions that makes fertile ground for FOMO is having an abundance of options. Being spoiled for choice. As the expression goes, as we've all experienced, having a hundred choices can be far more of a curse than a blessing, especially we don't want a hundred things.

We just want one thing. The thing that will meet our needs. The thing that will bring us joy. What happens when that [00:01:00] one thing is human connection? A friend there are over 330 million people in the United States and yet 75% of them report being dissatisfied with all the relationships they have, 25% don't have a single friend, they identify with.

We live in an age of unparalleled connectivity. And yet somehow we're just getting lonelier and let's be clear. Loneliness is no joke. Warm human connections are not a luxury. They're a requirement for life. Chronic loneliness shortens your life in real, tangible ways. You're at significantly higher risk of heart disease.

And. You're more likely to develop dementia and other cognitive disabilities in old age and your cognitive abilities in general, like decision-making concentration and ability to learn are depressed. If we're all getting [00:02:00] lonelier, we're all getting sicker in some way. Jillian Richardson created the joy list.

When she moved to New York city to connect herself to the events and gatherings around the city, that would give her the best chance to forge a meaningful human connections and find her. Since then she's made it her business to create facilitated human connection, intentional gatherings, carefully curated, and designed to foster the interactions that form the basis for nurturing, affirming human bonds, friendship.

I hope you enjoy my conversation with Jillian Richardson in New York city. 

Thank you so much for being with me today, founder of the joy list, author of Unlonely planet. So much to talk about. I want to start off the top with, how would you describe a joyful gathering? 

Jillian: I would say a joyful [00:03:00] gathering is the thing that has an intentional container.

It's a space where the creator put, thought into how people are coming together. Because for me as a guest, I love being in a space and seeing like I'm greeted people care that I'm there. They care about my experience. There are touch points along the way, where I have permission to go a little bit deeper with people and have real and meaningful conversations or interactions. That it's not just about conversation.

It can be through movement as well. An example is five rhythms. It's a really beautiful dance space where there is no talking. But the music is guided so that you are going through five really different tempos of movement. And it's a really intentional container. And if anyone's doing anything to break it, if they're talking, if they're on substances, they're kicked out.

And I know a lot of people feel self-conscious or like it's too pushy or it's too much to create rules for a space. Like Priya Parker talks about [00:04:00] that and the art of gathering a lot, but it's important. There's not a lot of places like that.

Christina: I like that. You created the Joy List for very personal reason.

Can you share that story with us? 

Jillian: Yeah, so I started the joy list because when I moved to New York city, I did all the things that people say you should do to make friends, which is go to bars, go to comedy shows, take classes, just hang out with the same people, and then friendships forms, like that's what happens.

And for me personally, Bars are not a place that are ideal for me. Just the kind of screaming, over loud music, essentially, doesn't foster meaningful connection, for me. 

Christina: I think if most people were honest about it, it doesn't for them either. 

Jillian: What I'd say, I'm sure like there's some places, especially in New York city, but anywhere where it is a really beautiful setting and it is a great place to have an awesome conversation, not the places where I was going, especially like a young person in your twenties, in New York city.

And then the comedy stuff. It [00:05:00] was like we were bonding over an activity. But also as people who've been in comedy for a long time can probably say, comedy is often used as a way to not go deep and to make jokes. And also sometimes it's a little mean, and it's like making fun of ourselves, making fun of each other.

And that's all I did in college was also just comedy stuff. 

Christina: Did you do comedy or you attended comedy or both did it? 

Jillian: I was the president of Boston university's improv group for three years. 

Christina: I'm going to find a YouTube clip and put it in the show notes. 

Jillian: I's all very embarrassing, because we also did a lot of sketch stuff and I'm not a good actor.

I'm good at making things up on the spot. But if you want me to do an accent or impersonate someone, like it's going to be really bad. Which was so I was doing a lot of really bad acting in college. 

But yeah, so my friend group, it was not fulfilling and I didn't really know what was missing, but I just said, 'cause I just graduated college when I moved to New York and I wanted to have a fresh start and create the kind of life that I wanted for [00:06:00] myself.

So I took a summer and was like, I'm just going to find my people, whatever it takes. I'm just going to find people I really love. So I went to music festivals by myself, twice. Did not like either experience. And then I went to this thing called camp grounded, which is a digital detox summer camp for adults.

Christina: I've heard of it. 

Jillian: Yes. I'm sure you must have so many friends. Who've gone. Have you gone? 

Christina: I have never gone, but in California. 

Jillian: Yeah, it was in California, also like North Carolina, Texas, New York, all over the place. And that was the first time I'd really experienced a super intentional event container where even just the people who showed up, you knew that you had something in common with them because they're not going to be on substances that weekend. They're giving up their phone. You're not talking about work. You're not talking about age. There are no clocks. It's just total presence. Oh, and also you don't use your real name. You use a silly camp name.

So my name is lady. And just the staff showed up so much with just this playful, silly openness that gave everyone else [00:07:00] permission to do the same. The first one I went to is three days long, which sounds so silly, it's short, but it totally changed my perception of what was possible with friendship. It was amazing.

And then those people became my friends and they brought me to all these other amazing spaces in New York city. And then Trump got elected in 2016, which is weird turn to the story. 

Christina: It seems to come up in every interview with an American. Totally. It's come up, over and over again. 

Jillian: And so for me, my friend circle in New York, not Trump supporters.

And I kept hearing people saying stuff like, I feel like I can't trust people anymore. People are bad. Like the world is hopeless, but meanwhile, I, for the first time ever had been surrounded by community and love and support. And I just wanted to let people know Hey, if you're feeling like you can't trust people and people suck, there are at least two places every day of the week in New York city, where you can go and be in connection. 

Christina: Such an amazing thing to do.

Jillian: Yeah, it's been great. 

Christina: I've shared it with a couple of [00:08:00] people only the people that I know that have moved to New York city. And they've said that if they haven't gone yet, just even knowing, and I'm sure you've heard this before. Even just knowing that these events exist and that it's an option is bringing them more joy and more hope for having community.

So I think that's an incredible gift you're giving people. 

Jillian: Thank you. Cause I really think the people who host the best events are also the worst at marketing themselves. They don't want to be pushy or showy or anything. So I try and give them a boost, but I get that feedback a lot that, oh wow. There's way more amazing gatherings in New York city than I realized.

Christina: And how do you choose what are, what needs to be present for you to select for the Joy list? 

Jillian: I've gotten more specific recently. So first of all, it's anything with facilitated connection. So that means instead of just a movie or an art gallery or something where you can go and you receive a thing, and it's very easy to leave without really connecting with somebody else.

It's something where there's someone there to help you connect. [00:09:00] So there's four categories, which I don't really mention in the newsletter. It's just what I've seen from what I've chosen over the years is facilitated conversation, movement, conscious sexuality and healing. Those are the four. So like an example of healing would be Surge, which is a racial justice circle for white people to talk about.

Movement five rhythms, like I talked about before facilitated conversation could be a women's circle. 

Christina: Do you have a favorite story? That's come out of the Joy List. Just like an event that just made a really important connection between two people or a big group. I'd love to hear a story of, 

Jillian: well, for me, it's not as much like one super ridiculous thing, it's just like I was at an event last night and this woman came up or a friend dragged this woman over to me. He was like, Jillian, like me, her name was Ann, something like that. She just moved to New York. I told her about your newsletter. She had no idea who you were, but she's been going to a ton of [00:10:00] events in your newsletter and it's helped her feel so much more comfortable in New York city.

And so she just wants to say thank you. Or like people who form business partnerships. Actually one specific story I do really like is that my event, that the joyless social, which is just facilitated exercises for people to make new friends is this one woman Devin who I know who the Joy list was, one of the reasons that inspired her to move to New York city because she wasn't sure if she would like it.

And then she went to a bunch of Joy List events and was like, oh, wait, new York's actually nicer than I thought. She was at the Joy List social. Overheard my friend, Steve Dean saying that he wanted to do some sort of immersive experience that helped people figure out what their love language is, and get a taste of that love language.

And she had just done that exact thing in Boston before she moved. And so the two of them ended up creating a five story, like they took over this amazing warehouse in Chelsea, or in Soho as a five-story immersive experience designed to help you create your love languages on Valentine's day weekend.

Christina: That's amazing. 

Jillian: It was [00:11:00] wild. Yeah. So just those connections, like you never know what's going to happen when people are just like, oh, we're all here to really talk and connect with each other. 

Christina: I've been thinking a lot about gathering because I've been recently to some, I always feel like in the fall, all the gathering starts to happen.

School, if you're in school and all these things, I went to a couple of events in the last little while, and I think that it's such a risky thing to gather people. There's this acronym there's, FOMO and JOMO and there's Fogo, which is the fear of going out. Yeah. Like the rise of social anxiety, because people are wild cards and people that organize events as you do are signing up for a lot of wild cards. Like you don't know how people are going to be, you don't know if anyone's going to show up. And I think there's an incredible amount of courage, just straight up organizing events. Yes. Yeah.

And then I don't really have a question there except to lead into: I was having another conversation with a woman who's a facilitator and she works in environmental activism, but she was talking about the [00:12:00] whole person and about how she's helping teach people how to have courageous conversations.

And I guess this is coming around to asking you a question around, do we, as a culture, need to be relearning how to have conversations, how to gather? So maybe if you could speak to that a little bit, and then maybe that could lead into the Unlonely Planet book. 

Jillian: Totally. I feel like I love this question. I actually don't get asked about just like courageous conversations very often.

And I love that point about how gathering people is a very courageous act, especially with social anxiety or like people who might not be fitting the traditional social mold. Cause I feel like, so with friendship, there's this idea that, oh, I should just know how to make friends. It's ju it just comes naturally.

And the same thing with communication no, I should just know how to communicate. It comes naturally, right? When really there's all of these trainings out there to communicate for a reason, because it doesn't come naturally. And we've been very conditioned to not say anything that might be challenging or unpleasing.

Christina: Or we just [00:13:00] don't talk period, because we spend most of our days, not communicating verbally. 

Jillian: It's so upsetting. And so even for me, I'm a person who's very extroverted. I think a lot of people assume that I'm just very good at communicating because they're like, no, she's like a cheerful, joyful, extroverted person that's just how she rolls. 

But also at the same time, the shadow side of that is that I want to be pleasing and I want people to like me. And so my challenge is learning how to communicate my truth and my boundaries, even when it's not necessarily what the other person wants to hear. And so I've been very vocal recently about just how many conversations I have on a regular basis where I'm saying something that is uncomfortable because people just don't have a lot of experience talking this way. It's I've been practicing with my family. I've been practicing with men who've harassed me. I've been practicing with friends where I've been the person who's totally in the wrong, with romantic partners with setting boundaries. It's just it's [00:14:00] not my job to learn these things, but I just want to be a more skillful human. 

Christina: That's incredible.

I don't think a lot of people have that kind of drive 

Jillian: It's totally work. 

Christina: So much there. I want, I'm curious about what led and I would expect that your work with the Joy List, did your work with the Joy List precede the book? Yeah. Okay. So tell me about the book and then, and how the journey to the book. 

Jillian: Yeah. It's so funny how the idea for the book started is that I was at this conference called next gen summit, which is a conference for young entrepreneurs. This guy, Eric Koster gave a talk about what he calls creation events, or a thing where a young person, but really anyone wants to get to a new stage in their life.

And that could be being known as an expert. It could be getting a really big new job. That's really competitive. It could be getting into a really awesome graduate program, anything. And he's like the thing that makes people stand out. And the thing that makes people get chosen while also still being their authentic selves is [00:15:00] doing something big.

And that could be a podcast. It could be a conference or, and this was the thing that he was essentially selling was writing a book and most people have no idea how to write a book. The process is super overwhelming. And he was saying like, he, he used to run a program for college students where they would write a book in a semester.

And then all of these students were getting these crazy jobs and these awesome opportunities. Cause how many college students can say that they've written a book, and then he just took it and started making it available to anyone. And I never would have done it except I knew people, especially this one woman, Haley Hopkin Smith, who she wrote a book about why only 1% of women get venture capital funding and then started her own venture capital fund as a result of having this book, which is bananas. And so I trusted him and I signed up for this program. And so I wrote my book. It was a year which in bookwriting land is fast.

Yeah. I know people who've written them way faster. My judgment is that they're not [00:16:00] quality books. Yeah, it totally took over my life for a year, but the reason I wrote it was: one, I was looking at all the books about community building and most of them. And this is changing now very quickly, but most of them are written by white dudes in their fifties and sixties, like the big ones and the textbooks and the things that are referenced in college curriculums.

And I was like there's such a huge issue for this for people in their twenties. And there's not a single book about this written by someone in their twenties. And this is all I'm thinking about. 

Christina: And you're the ones that are trying to form those hopefully lifelong or at least long-lasting relationships.

That's the pivotal, those are the pivotal years to do that. So what better person? Yeah. 

Jillian: I did it! 

Christina: You did it! 

Jillian: It was very hard. 

Christina: I can attest to that being a hard task. 

Jillian: Yeah.

Christina: You use the word congregation, and I'd like for you to explore a little bit, why you chose the word congregation. Yeah. Maybe I'll just say, I'm going to read the subtitle. Jillian's book is called Unlonely Planet: How healthy congregations can change the world.

Jillian: Yes. I had so many people tell me not to use that subtitle, but [00:19:00] also so many people tell me to use it because when people hear the word congregation, they assume a lot of the times church. Like a church congregation. Sure. When really the word congregation just means any group of people that are coming together.

And I'm talking in the book about how organized religion used to give us so many beautiful things. And of course, for so many people, it still does, but there's a large group of people, especially people in their twenties and thirties who don't have a religion, we identify as none. And so how can we still have the sense of a really closely knit group of people that deeply care for each other?

And so I love using the word congregation to describe anyone's community, because I feel like it's giving it this weight and a commitment almost that a lot of people don't attribute to their friend groups. 

Christina: I love that idea. I love the idea of it having a weightiness to it because, I think the word community is still a really beautiful word and hasn't lost all of its meaning.

But of course, we [00:20:00] talk about online community, online communities and corporate communities, and I've actually changed my language around the online space to be contact. Yeah. Not connection, not really community. Yeah. Cause you know, usually like, oh, you know, you're making online connections. It's No, we're making contact.

Like we're making contact that could become a thing, like you and I messaging online and emailing. And then here we are in person. But I love that there's a weightiness to congregation. I also love. That you're calling people into more. That's of course what you're doing, but like really more, like we are looking out for each other.

We're not just gathering for fun times. Yeah. We're gathering to form connections that we can go to when we're in need. 

Jillian: Yeah. That's the thing that I love about church is that when you go, like I could show up at a church twice and then suddenly I'm in the hospital. I could reach out to that church and say, I need people to bring [00:21:00] me food.

I need support. I would love people to come and pray for me or just people in general to think about me and pray for me. And then without that support system, a lot of people feel too proud or too nervous to ask for the help that they really need, because it's not assumed that's the duty or responsibility of a friend group.

Christina: Yeah, that's such an interesting point. I know you have you talk about it in the book, but just the statistic about that, the average American and it's something I've actually spoken about also in my work that the average American, I think the stat is, has only one close friend. And even with that friend, there is a dissatisfaction. 

Jillian: 75% of people in America are not satisfied their friendship.

So it's cool. We got one friend, three quarters of us don't like that friend. 

Christina: If the world could look the way that you wanted it to look, what would it look like? 

Okay. Maybe we get more specific your neighborhood or maybe New York city. 

Jillian: One thing I've been pondering a lot recently because I just finished reading Adrian Marie Brown's book, [00:22:00] emergent strategy.

And it's so beautiful. It's about essentially using a group of people. And facilitating a group of people to create the change that you want to see. Because a lot of the times it's the facilitator who's leading the group and the facilitator who has their agenda that they're trying to get to, but to say okay, we're getting a community together.

We're hearing what your concerns are. We're creating the agenda together. You're forming action groups and we're doing the work. And there might be a lot of people listening who hear that and think duh, that's what the social justice world is, like that's how it works. But I'm a little embarrassed to say, like I'm not involved in social justice work really.

And so hearing this model of bringing people together for social change blew my mind and knowing how skillful people need to be to deal with groups for that extended of a period of time and to really create change and to deal with how long it really takes to listen to people's [00:23:00] opinions that thoroughly.

 I would just love to see maybe not unnecessarily more of that, because I'm sure there's a lot of stuff going on in my neighborhood that I have no idea about, but perhaps that they're more popular and they're more resourced just because I know that's always a struggle for my friends who are in movement work. The lack of resources, the lack of understanding, the lack of popularity. So that's one thing. I hope that makes sense. 

Christina: It makes sense. I'm curious for someone who's listing, who is struggling a bit with isolation or loneliness, what would your, what would you say to them as like a first step? 

Jillian: They could take a few things. Ne is to let your social media community know if you have one. The format I like to use is. Hey, Facebook world. Like I'm looking for more friends in New York city. I love like insert whatever you love here. I love meditation and blues dancing. I would love to meet people who are into those types of things. Do you have any recommendations for me?

Christina: So like hello, insert city. [00:24:00] Yeah. Wherever you live here are the things I like. I'm looking to do this more with other people. 

Jillian: And I know it's one thing for me to just say that. And it sounds, it's a very simple thing, but it's not an easy thing, because it's very vulnerable.

And I ask for help on social media pretty much every day of my life. So I'm very used to just being like, hi, I need a thing, I'm assuming you would like to help me. Hello? Let's will you help me please? 

Christina: I think that's a good assumption to make. 

Jillian: Yeah, because people do want to help, especially it is the easiest thing for someone to be like, oh my friend, Matt, he's dope that this is me tagging Matt. Bye. That took 20 seconds. Yeah. 

Christina: Okay. I feel like you were going to lead to one more, other ideas. 

Jillian: So that's one very easy one. Another is if you find events that you really like for example, in New York, there's this event called Medi club that I love. It's like meditation and dinner and group singing, but an issue is that it's, it can be a little overwhelming.

It's like walking in. It's just a lot of people. And so I started volunteering. So [00:25:00] for. Every month for maybe like almost a year, I volunteered to sign people in and it's, volunteering at any event, it's an amazing way to one, get to know the organizers and organizers are always the Uber connectors of their city.

And then also get to know the volunteers because volunteers are people who are they're volunteering, cause they want to meet other people and connect with other people. And then the last thing is if you have social anxiety, it's a really amazing way to just give you a purpose and a thing to do. And there's a sense of belonging that comes with volunteering.

Christina: It's good point. 

I am quite introverted. I used to throw raging house parties and I'd end up in the kitchen, like just stocking chips the whole time. I didn't really understand it for a long time, but I was actually introverted, but it's true that you go, and if you have something to do that, doesn't take play, you're standing in the corner with nothing to do.

And then of course you are going to grab for your phone, because what else are you going to do? So I love that idea. Okay. And then what's your third one. 

Jillian: Another thing, this is, [00:26:00] it sounds silly, but eventbrite has a event filter for community. If you were like, okay, I'm in Chicago. I want events for March 2nd.

And then filter for the tag community, people who are posting their events on eventbrite, will use that tag and it's, it typically is pretty accurate of religious events, spiritual events, a lot of volunteering stuff is in there, and like charity events. So all really good ways to really connect with people.

Versus if you're just looking at concerts or if you're looking at clubs or restaurants, people a lot of times they're going with their group that they want to stick with and they might not be open to new connections. 

Christina: I like that as well. That's really good. Of course my podcast is the JOMOcast, it's all about the joy of missing out, but JOMO means different things to different people.

And I wondered if you could answer the question, what does JOMO mean to you? 

Jillian: Okay. To me JOMO means knowing that it's okay for me to recharge. I'm also actually a little bit introverted, [00:27:00] which people would never expect, but just knowing that for me, it's quality time with people, not the quantity of people.

So really my ideal night is like a dinner party with four people where we're going really deep. And so the past few days I had a really socially packed schedule. And today I did not talk to anyone except for my roommate for just an hour, we could talk for forever. But that tonight there's a dance party happening, that all my friends are going to, and I'm staying home and I'm taking a bath and I'm wearing my dinosaur onesie, and that is what I am doing. 

And that I've been, I've trained myself to feel guilty about taking that time for myself, that I'm not going to the dance party. I'm going to be at home alone. And that that's okay. And then actually, if I don't do that tomorrow, when I show up in the world, I'm not going to be as open to other people.

I'm going to feel honestly a little resentful of other people. Yeah. 

Christina: I love that answer, Jillian thanks so much for being with me today. 

Jillian: You are so welcome. [00:28:00]